I’m Tripping Out…
Because my home church is inviting Tedd Tripp for a Seminar this spring and I am just trying to fathom why. I have read, “Shepherding a Child’s Heart” and have the following issues with it:
Page 108 – What is the Rod? – “The rod is a parent, in faith toward God…(who) undertakes the responsibility of careful, timely, measured and controlled uses of physical punishment”.
Page 109 – “God has mandated its use…..God has commanded it”. So if I do not use spanking as a Christian parent, am I in sin? I guess I must be if God has mandated it and commanded it. By the way, he states this, but does not support it on this page with any biblical references.
Page 138 - Obedience Defined – “Obedience is willing submission of one person to the authority of another. It means more than a child doing what he is told. It means doing what he is told, without challenge, without excuse and without delay.” I do not want my children raised like this. Often I’ll tell my daughter who is 6 to come over to the computer room for her lesson (we home school). She might say, “OK, but can I go get a snack first..or can I finish coloring this last page”. Trip actually mentions “finish coloring this page”, as not acceptable. Why? My child is a human being who has a mind that can think. Maybe her body is telling her she is thirsty or needs a snack before we sit down to do school work. If you are like me, I know that when I am engrossed in a project and almost finished with it, and my wife calls for me, I will say I need 5-10 more minutes and I can be done. Why can’t we allow room for our children to express this same need? Although he does not state it on page 138, but I would surmise from reading his book, that this type of response does not met his definition of obedience and therefore should be dealt with by spanking
I have found a very interesting article by Dennis Prager, which notes that the name God gives Jacob and His Choosen People is “Israel”, which literally means “Struggle with God.” Many people argued or struggled with God, and did not met Mr. Tripp’s without challenge, without excuse and without delay criteria. So if God does not require it of us as adults why are we requiring it of our children?
Page 151 – The “How” of Spanking – “Remove the drawers so that the spanking is not lost the padding of his pants.” You know to this day I can remember my Dad spanking me like this when we were visiting some ones house. It is embarrassing and humiliating to expose your child’s nakedness for a spanking, and if you read around much on the net there are many stories of how this sexualizes this form of discipline and has left many people pretty messed up because of advise like this.
Page 153 – The Why of Spanking – “God Commands it.” My antenna’s have a habit of going up when someone subscribes something to God, but offers no verses for me to look up so at least I can find a verse that states this. “Spanking comes only because it is God’s method of driving foolishness far from your child’s heart.”
Really…. again, no chapter and verse attached to the statement. There are no other methods approved of by God to accomplish this?
Page 154 – When is the Child Old Enough – “When your child is old enough to resist your directives, he is old enough to be disciplined. When he is resisting you he is disobeying. If you fail to respond, these rebellious responses become entrenched….Rebellion can be something as simple as an INFANT struggling against a diaper change or stiffening out his body when you want him to sit on your lap. The discipline procedure is the same as laid out above.” For the life of me I cannot figure out why my church is allowing a man to come to our pulpit to espouse such drivel. An infant….6 months old is in rebellion for struggling during a diaper change and is subject to “the rod” for this. I have asked my Pastor, Elders, the committee that decided to give Mr. Tripp an invitation to our church, how they can justify this, and to date I have not received an answer. I know why, because it is not defendable.
Page 155 – Child Did Not Hear You - “When you hear my voice you should perk up your ears. From now on, if you fail to obey because you “did not hear”, I will spank you for failing to listen to my voice.” I hope Mr. Tripp and his devotees have not had children who truly have a hearing deficiency. I wonder how many kids have endured spankings due to this advise before the parents realized there is a genuine medical issue. Even if my children do not have a medical hearing problem, why would I spank them for this. If this was a repeated mantra of a given child, that would be dealt with, but why does it need to be dealt with by me hitting my child?
Page 151- 152 – “After you have spanked, take the child up on your lap and hug him, telling him how much you love him, how much it grieves you to spank him…At this point there should be complete restoration between you and your child…If he is mad at you, if he refuses to receive your affection, then something is wrong….On some occasions we have we have had to say to say to our children, “Dear Daddy has spanked you, but you are not sweet enough yet. We are going to have to go back upstairs for another spanking.” Mr. Tripp does not define this rather odd term “sweet enough”, nor does he give a number as to how many times he ends of spanking until a child is “sweet enough”. And most importantly he does not cite any Bible verses to support this reasoning.
{{{Candleman98}}}
Page 108 – What is the Rod? – “The rod is a parent, in faith toward God…(who) undertakes the responsibility of careful, timely, measured and controlled uses of physical punishment”.
Page 109 – “God has mandated its use…..God has commanded it”. So if I do not use spanking as a Christian parent, am I in sin? I guess I must be if God has mandated it and commanded it. By the way, he states this, but does not support it on this page with any biblical references.
Page 138 - Obedience Defined – “Obedience is willing submission of one person to the authority of another. It means more than a child doing what he is told. It means doing what he is told, without challenge, without excuse and without delay.” I do not want my children raised like this. Often I’ll tell my daughter who is 6 to come over to the computer room for her lesson (we home school). She might say, “OK, but can I go get a snack first..or can I finish coloring this last page”. Trip actually mentions “finish coloring this page”, as not acceptable. Why? My child is a human being who has a mind that can think. Maybe her body is telling her she is thirsty or needs a snack before we sit down to do school work. If you are like me, I know that when I am engrossed in a project and almost finished with it, and my wife calls for me, I will say I need 5-10 more minutes and I can be done. Why can’t we allow room for our children to express this same need? Although he does not state it on page 138, but I would surmise from reading his book, that this type of response does not met his definition of obedience and therefore should be dealt with by spanking
I have found a very interesting article by Dennis Prager, which notes that the name God gives Jacob and His Choosen People is “Israel”, which literally means “Struggle with God.” Many people argued or struggled with God, and did not met Mr. Tripp’s without challenge, without excuse and without delay criteria. So if God does not require it of us as adults why are we requiring it of our children?
Page 151 – The “How” of Spanking – “Remove the drawers so that the spanking is not lost the padding of his pants.” You know to this day I can remember my Dad spanking me like this when we were visiting some ones house. It is embarrassing and humiliating to expose your child’s nakedness for a spanking, and if you read around much on the net there are many stories of how this sexualizes this form of discipline and has left many people pretty messed up because of advise like this.
Page 153 – The Why of Spanking – “God Commands it.” My antenna’s have a habit of going up when someone subscribes something to God, but offers no verses for me to look up so at least I can find a verse that states this. “Spanking comes only because it is God’s method of driving foolishness far from your child’s heart.”
Really…. again, no chapter and verse attached to the statement. There are no other methods approved of by God to accomplish this?
Page 154 – When is the Child Old Enough – “When your child is old enough to resist your directives, he is old enough to be disciplined. When he is resisting you he is disobeying. If you fail to respond, these rebellious responses become entrenched….Rebellion can be something as simple as an INFANT struggling against a diaper change or stiffening out his body when you want him to sit on your lap. The discipline procedure is the same as laid out above.” For the life of me I cannot figure out why my church is allowing a man to come to our pulpit to espouse such drivel. An infant….6 months old is in rebellion for struggling during a diaper change and is subject to “the rod” for this. I have asked my Pastor, Elders, the committee that decided to give Mr. Tripp an invitation to our church, how they can justify this, and to date I have not received an answer. I know why, because it is not defendable.
Page 155 – Child Did Not Hear You - “When you hear my voice you should perk up your ears. From now on, if you fail to obey because you “did not hear”, I will spank you for failing to listen to my voice.” I hope Mr. Tripp and his devotees have not had children who truly have a hearing deficiency. I wonder how many kids have endured spankings due to this advise before the parents realized there is a genuine medical issue. Even if my children do not have a medical hearing problem, why would I spank them for this. If this was a repeated mantra of a given child, that would be dealt with, but why does it need to be dealt with by me hitting my child?
Page 151- 152 – “After you have spanked, take the child up on your lap and hug him, telling him how much you love him, how much it grieves you to spank him…At this point there should be complete restoration between you and your child…If he is mad at you, if he refuses to receive your affection, then something is wrong….On some occasions we have we have had to say to say to our children, “Dear Daddy has spanked you, but you are not sweet enough yet. We are going to have to go back upstairs for another spanking.” Mr. Tripp does not define this rather odd term “sweet enough”, nor does he give a number as to how many times he ends of spanking until a child is “sweet enough”. And most importantly he does not cite any Bible verses to support this reasoning.
{{{Candleman98}}}
posted by Candleman at
Sunday, February 06, 2005
11 Comments:
I have asked my Pastor, Elders, the committee that decided to give Mr. Tripp an invitation to our church, how they can justify this, and to date I have not received an answer. I know why, because it is not defendable.In my not so humble opinion, it's time to leave your church. Quietly, without causing divisiveness. If anyone asks you should be honest and tell them why. But don't try to drag people out with you.
I say this because your pastor is the Shepherd of his congregation. And you are right, there is some real danger in these teachings. I couldn't support a Pastor who ignored these legitimate concerns. (If he had an answer, that would be one thing...)
Mr. Tripp does not define this rather odd term “sweet enough”, nor does he give a number as to how many times he ends of spanking until a child is “sweet enough”. And most importantly he does not cite any Bible verses to support this reasoning. Man, are you right. This stuff is borderline creepy. I'm not accusing Mr. Tripp of child abuse, but this stuff is ripe for use by a twisted person.
-Shrode from www.thinklings.org
By
Anonymous, at 2/07/2005 8:57 AM
Don't forget all the crap in that book about your kid being outside God's "circle of blessing" if you fail to discipline her properly.
By
Anonymous, at 2/07/2005 2:31 PM
Two things:
*Please* tell me you submitted this heated criticism of your elders to them personally before publishing it to the world. If you've got a problem with your elders, buddy, you'd better make every effort to work it out; not publish your backbiting in a public forum - and without their knowledge, likely. "A man who stirs up dissention among brothers" is one the seven things the Lord hates (Prov 6.19)
Second, it doesn't appear to me your elders could likely "work things out" with you, because your mind is clearly made up. Which isn't bad; we are all entitled to our opinions. But you are also entitled to either work it out with them, or submit; you are not entitled to publish on the internet what lousy leaders they are for inviting Ted Tripp to speak.
But might I suggest that I could cull through ANY written work, find a juicy quote here and there, completely cut it off from its context, and make the author seem like a monster? You're not fooling me. Tripp's book is called "Shepherding a Child's HEART," - and his entire point is to focus attention on the desires and motives of your child's heart, and yet your treatment has him looking like a legalistic disciplinarian only concerned with OUTWARD behavior.
Although I would hardly affirm everything Tripp teaches - and he would hardly expect you to! - I believe you haven't read Tripp honestly, or right.
BTW - Proverbs 13.24: "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."
By
Anonymous, at 2/14/2005 11:43 AM
Hello Anonymous,
Thank you for your post. The answer to your question about whether I have submitted my criticism to my church leadership is yes, my wife and I have communicated on at least three different occasions to the senior pastors, met with and elder and his wife (both of whom also served on the committee to make the invitation to Mr. Tripp), and are open to meet with anyone else to have our concerns answered. Now, to answer some more of your points.
*Please* tell me you submitted this heated criticism of your elders to them personally before publishing it to the world. If you've got a problem with your elders, buddy, you'd better make every effort to work it out; not publish your backbiting in a public forum - and without their knowledge, likely..
1) I did not mention my church's name or location, Pastor's name, nor any elder's name in my post; thereby giving everyone anonymity to my "publishing to the world" of my concerns. Since about 90% of the post is a direct quote from "Shepherding A Child's Heart" , please show me where my commentary is heated or backbiting. Challenging...yes. Merely raising concerns and not following in lock step with the decision of our church is not being heated, a backbiter, or someone causing dissention. It is posing serious questions to the teachings of a man that has been invited to my church. We are allowed to do that in Christianity.Second, it doesn't appear to me your elders could likely "work things out" with you, because your mind is clearly made up. Which isn't bad; we are all entitled to our opinions. But you are also entitled to either work it out with them, or submit; you are not entitled to publish on the internet what lousy leaders they are for inviting Ted Tripp to speak.
2) Actually I would like them to defend Mr. Tripp's writings, especially: Page 154 – When is the Child Old Enough – “When your child is old enough to resist your directives, he is old enough to be disciplined. When he is resisting you he is disobeying. If you fail to respond, these rebellious responses become entrenched….Rebellion can be something as simple as an INFANT struggling against a diaper change or stiffening out his body when you want him to sit on your lap. And since I have asked them numerous times to do so, maybe you can defend it. He wrote it, it is in his book, it is not taken out of context, and unless he has renounced this position, he will most likely be teaching this from the pulpit of my church. You say I do not have a right to challenge my pastor, and church leadership as to why they would bring someone in to our church and teach this? Why? Also I have not called my Pastor or elder board "lousy leaders", those are your words. All I have asked is, if they are intent on bringing Mr. Tripp to our church, to please answer some concerns my wife and I have in regards to his teachings. Questioning the actions of church leadership should be the sign of a healthy church, and it should be welcomed.
But might I suggest that I could cull through ANY written work, find a juicy quote here and there, completely cut it off from its context, and make the author seem like a monster? You're not fooling me. Tripp's book is called "Shepherding a Child's HEART," - and his entire point is to focus attention on the desires and motives of your child's heart, and yet your treatment has him looking like a legalistic disciplinarian only concerned with OUTWARD behavior.
3) The eight different quotes I pulled from the book are not out of context. The are complete quotes that show what Mr. Tripp believes. In what "context" are these things right? Mr. Tripp is fairly unique in the mainstream of evangelical circles to teach: 1) "spank infants during a diaper change, because this is the beginning of the sign of rebellion, 2) that Christian parents must spank because God has commanded it. 3) spank children for not hearing a parent's directive 4) spank the child with "drawers" pulled down 5) spank the child if he does not obey "without challenge, without excuse and without delay" 6) and to spank the child again if the child is "not sweet enough".
I don't know what parenting books you have read, but I do not see this type of advice in the ones I read. This is exclusive to Mr. Tripp. If my church leadership is going to invite him to our church to teach these things and sell his books in our lobby, I would like an explanation as to why. As a regular attending, tithing, member who participates in ministries in the church, I have a right to challenge the wisdom of both Mr. Tripp's writings and the leadership that has invited him. Although I would hardly affirm everything Tripp teaches - and he would hardly expect you to! - I believe you haven't read Tripp honestly, or right.
I don't question things I have not read, so I don’t know what you mean by this statement . Maybe you can explain to me the "right" way to read his book. Or perhaps maybe you can defend the 7-8 points I have raised with Mr. Tripp's book. My problem with Tripp's teaching is that I think he takes things beyond a level of simple style disagreements and is preaching something that I believe to be in direct contradiction to God’s Word. Therefore for me to be silent and “submit” to church leadership over the issues I have raised would be less than genuine.
BTW, I believe very strongly in Proverbs 13:24 that I am supposed to "discipline" my children. However, if I were to take this as a literal physical use of the rod, I would be obliged to beat my children with a rod across their legs and/or back hard enough to leave severe bruising--not spank them on the back side enough to cause temporary discomfort/pain.
Steve
By
candleman, at 2/14/2005 10:44 PM
"Anonymous" said: But might I suggest that I could cull through ANY written work, find a juicy quote here and there, completely cut it off from its context, and make the author seem like a monster? You're not fooling me. Tripp's book is called "Shepherding a Child's HEART," - and his entire point is to focus attention on the desires and motives of your child's heart, and yet your treatment has him looking like a legalistic disciplinarian only concerned with OUTWARD behavior.Yes, one can find things to disagree with from every book. However I would submit that there are plenty of other books that have less to disagree with than this book. Also, the issue here, as pointed out by my husband, is that we find a significant tenant of Tripp's teaching to be in opposition to the Bible--not simply a matter of preferance differences.
As to the title of the book being really meaningful...I will admit that Tripp talks a lot about the child's heart. But he seems to lack a basic lack of understanding of age appropriate behavior (such as a toddler's desire to explore and learn about the world, lack of impulse control, and short memory span), which is important if one is to understand the motivations behind behavior. He also fails to provide many "take home practices" to facilitate molding the child's heart beyond spanking the child. Even the elder we met with who, with his wife, was responsible for inviting Tripp to our church, had to agree that this was a common complaint about Tripp's book (but they assured us that would be corrected by attending the seminar--which to us avoids the point of addressing his BOOK, since many people will not attend the seminar, and even if they do, the book is what they will have to refer back to 6 months down the road when they are having difficulty with little Billy).
But beyond even that, he completely misses the point that it is GOD who discerns and shepherds our hearts, not another human, including parents. The Bible specifically states that humans only see the outward man, but God sees the heart.
By
Jenn, at 2/15/2005 1:57 PM
Don't forget all the crap in that book about your kid being outside God's "circle of blessing" if you fail to discipline her properly.This is one of the confusing things to me as well. Tripp is "Covenantal" in his theology which means that he assumes children born to Christians are part of the Covenant family of God.
But why he thinks some kind of external stimulus(spankings) can keep your children within the Covenant/circle of blessing is beyond me. Especially when he is Reform and thinks that God alone decides who is "in" and who is "out" .
It gets a little confusing.
By
Sozo, at 2/22/2005 10:50 AM
I am a missionary in North India, who while not agreeing with everything in tripp's book, have found it helpful. It should be seen as a corrective to so much junk in the other direction. Yes, he over corrects, but it is a book, not hte Bible.
That is not the point. This is within the acceptable realm of orthodoxy, and certainly is a useful book in ongoing conversation of child rearing. This is not something to raise issue with. If your elders want to invite the guy, let it go. It is not worth dividing over, it may be wrong, but is not heretical. If we cannot give and take a little whtn we can always find things like this to be antagonistic about. Basically we are all human and none of us has it all right, so we need to bear with one another, love one another, think the best with one another, or continue to bicker over non-essentials and continue to be the laughing stock of the secular world.
The fool who told you to leave over this should be shot (with love of course).
By
Anonymous, at 6/01/2005 11:44 AM
I had a neighbor that believed this "christian" advice about spanking small babies. Anyone who has a normal conscience knows this is wrong. She actually would spank her 1-year-old daughter for struggling during diaper changes. She kept "the rod" (that horrible plastic whip that someone is selling) by the changing table. And if her daughter struggled, she would bring it down hard right between the baby's legs. With no diaper on! I used to babysit this child, and she would have red marks and bruises on her vulva and thighs from these whippings. No wonder why she would scream and try to get away during diaper changes!
By
Anonymous, at 9/02/2005 2:59 PM
Your neighbor should have been reported for child abuse! This is sick, sick, sick!! When you witness this type of child abuse, you need to report it and can do so anonymously. I urge you to do so in the future. Please, a child's life and emotional health may depend on it!
By
Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 9:15 PM
Thank you for your comments. I think you handled this very well. I too am having to meet with my pastors over parenting classes being taught in our church. I think what people do not understand is when parenting ideas and methods are elevated to being biblical, then you as a Christian parent who believes the Bible to be God's Word, have to decide if they are biblical or not. When your pastors and church leadership allow teaching and are unable to show biblical support for it, it is a concern. It really does cut to the heart of if your chuch leadership is truly committed to being in line with the Bible. I am experiencing this right now and it is hard to have to confront your own church leadership. Therefore, I applaud you for doing what we are called to do-
Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
By
Jennifer Schrank, at 3/12/2008 1:38 PM
It's good to ask for proof. Tedd Tripp, in fact, offers much scriptural proof - at least in the latest version of the book. Interesting to me is that this post has not included any Bible references that support the claim that Tripp's disciplinary ideas are good or bad Biblically. That should raise all sorts of warning flags to the Bible student. If a thrashing of a man's theological ideas comes with no scriptural support, then buyer beware. What does the Bible say about this topic directly? It has much to say. Many (not all) are listed at the bottom. But first, let's answer some accusations:
APPEAL: A careful reading of the book alone reveals the appeal process - which allows for instant obedience while appealing the command simultaneously. So the appeal is encouraged.
ABUSE: They emphasize the Biblical idea that it is forbidden to discipline in anger – which would be selfish sinful abuse. Abuse through anger is a real problem – even by people that abhor spanking. Tripp seeks to solve this huge issue Biblically.
PRIVATE DISCIPLINE: Discipline with the rod is to be done in private – even within the home. If it is not, then it is done wrongly.
CIRCLE OF BLESSING: The “circle of blessing” is a legitimate explanation of the abstraction given in Ephesians 6. It is does not directly apply to salvation as Sozo believes Tripp teaches. Tripp does not propose that we spank a child into salvation/justification. It is about bringing children back into the region of safety of obedience and honor of parents - which God says is a place of blessing. Tripp knows that the ultimate choice of life philosophy (faith) the child will follow is the child’s choice and burden. He emphasizes that parents avoid being party to the child’s spiritual death by doing nothing when the child passes the boundary of that circle in the wrong direction.
SWEET ENOUGH: The idea is simple enough and not scary at all. Generally, if your child is in rebellion after the discipline, then he/she clearly isn’t “sweet enough” – which means submissive to God’s command to honor and obey.
INTERPRETATION: Whether or not you agree with Tripp’s overall system of theology, at least here he interprets the Bible plainly and contextually. The plain meaning of how to discipline Biblically is at odds with current popular opinion that regards spanking as evil. The Bible is clear and I think timeless in it's application. All the verses below are from Proverbs, which means that they are general principles. Faith in their principles is wisdom – whether or not the world calls them foolish.
Note: The Hebrew word for "rod" is transliterated "shebet", which means "stick."
Proverbs 10:13 NKJV
(13) Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding, But a rod is for the back of him who is devoid of understanding.
Proverbs 13:24 NKJV
(24) He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.
Proverbs 22:15 NKJV
(15) Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him.
Proverbs 23:13-14 NKJV
(13) Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
(14) You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.
Proverbs 26:3 NKJV
(3) A whip for the horse, A bridle for the donkey, And a rod for the fool's back.
Proverbs 29:15-17 NKJV
(15) The rod and rebuke give wisdom, But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.
(16) When the wicked are multiplied, transgression increases; But the righteous will see their fall.
(17) Correct your son, and he will give you rest; Yes, he will give delight to your soul.
By
Michael, at 7/17/2008 11:53 AM
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